Hi from the South of France

[Ian France]

Hi All
Im trying to revamp a Mk 1 MR2 first registerd in Uk 1987 but Im in the countryside of the South of France so a bit complicated ---
Not many were sold here( possibly because the name spoken with a French accent sounds like “Emmerder” which could be very loosely translated into English as something that lands you in the “Merde” !) so there is not much local experience of the model
I suspect it is bad form to launch straight into a request for help but was speaking on tel with Neil in Wales who is a member and he suggested I post.
I wounder if anyone has an explanation and or suggestion regarding the following symptoms which (perhaps coincidentally) started just after some VERY heavy rainfall )
Rattling noise when engine revs increased rapidly (just a little jab) or under load
3 and 4 Cylinders appear to be not firing at all or very little as disconnecting them individually or together makes no difference to tick over however just disconnecting plug for cylinder one or two (with all others connected )immediately stalls engine
There is a healthy spark at plug end of all leads
Plugs switched between 3/4 and 1/2 No Difference so plugs OK
Same with HT Leads
Exhaust fumes not excessive maybe a bit white but seen much worse
All leads correctly connected to Dizzi for correct cylinders (counting 1 2 3 4 from Engine side to pax side)
With all plugs connected slow throttle increase can get all the way to 6K revs with only very slight rattle creeping in at around 5 or 6 K
Sudden (small)throttle surge with all plugs connected causes a clack clack noise regardless what revs the surge given at
Driving with all plugs connected causes clack clack above 2K revs any time engine pulling ( Ie slight
incline or even very steady acceleration )
Then strangest of all ------
With plug 3 and 4 Wires completely removed Engine a bit rough but but runs with no clack clack regardless of revs or throttle, Hills, or acceleration etc!
Amazing performance for 2 Cylinders! - Incredible little car this but has me stumped –

Any suggestions very gratefully received

Cheers
Ian :confused:

[julianw]

I suspect it is bad form to launch straight into a request for help but ....
Ian :confused:

Not at all!

Hi and welcome.

Have you taken off the plate that the plugs and leads have to pass through? I'm thinking you might have a load of water underneath it causing issues for the HT when the leads are on the plugs. You'll need to remove the throttle linkage and the silly tripod that holds the throttle cable (unless you have inherited an incredibly rare Jimi bracket - sorry - ongoing joke on this forum!), then three more bolts gets this plate out. Chances are, the space under here has not been cleaned out in a while and it's good to not be dropping loads of cack onto your piston heads whenever you take a plug out

Also, any chance you can borrow a compression tester and compare the four cylinders? If you fancy getting innovative, I've heard you can make a perfectly serviceable compression tester out of a pressure gauge and an old spark plug. (I think Bill Hulme might be able to give detail on that). I suggest this as you might want to confirm that it's not a head gasket problem before you throw a lot of time at eliminating other possible causes! Cooling for that end of the engine is always less effective than near to the air intake, so HG failures and problems with the exhaust manifold tend to be here.

Could the clack noise be pinking - the noise of pre-ignition when the timing is advanced too far? Basically the fuel/air mix is ignited too early - while the piston is still travelling up, and the resulting pressure (that should be pushing on the piston head as it passes top and starts moving down) presses on it when it is still moving up to the top of its travel, causing a clattering noise. This does not explain the lack of power from 3 and 4, but you could have two separate problems. Do you have a timing light to check the setting?

Also, could water have got into the air intake ducting? Unless this has been modified, it runs all over the place before it gets into the engine bay and there's plenty of places it could have trapped some water.

And finally, do you have a multimeter that you can use to check out the condition and adjustment of the throttle position sensor? This has a big effect on the behaviour of the engine and inevitably gets a lot of wear. Also, getting its adjustment spot on is quite tricky.

Hope this helps. Looking forward to hearing how you get on.

Julian

[Ian France]

Hi Julian
Thanks for the very helpfull response

Plate and leads
Yes have taken off and cleaned up completely (It was a complete mess and thought would be the solution but sadly no change) :(
Also got the Valve covers off and turned over on starter motor only - all looks ok there

Also got the Fuel ramp off and checked the injectors - looked pretty dirty etc so cleaned up all and thought that might be the solution (rubber seals not good but same on all four and no replacements to hand so re inserted with old - will go back and replace those later ) switched over one and two injectors with 3 and 4 just in case

Also felt around with finger in each cylinder - 3 and 4 felt "wetter" than 1 and 2 which dry - but difficult to get a real measure of "wetness" was not pooling as such more just humidity:condensation like (Exhaust fumes a little white on start up but realy not excessively so and not more than I would expect given age after overnight standing)



Put all back together ---- No change! :( - At least I know the injectors are OK ::rolleyes:

Have a neighbour with compression tester so will try that next - beginning to think it might be head gasket - how would that look on the pressure test -- will it be obvious or more subtle - sounds like a big job to fix

Have timing light but not sure how to check on MR2 - Also if timing out how could 1 and 2 be so strong

Water in air intake - That sounds like a simpler problem than Head Gasket - can you advise where to look for that first - could it cause the symptoms ? why only 3 and 4?

Multimeter - Think thats what the neighbour used to check the injector connections were all giving same input (they were) - where is the "throttle sensor " how does one "check out its condition and adjustment "? indeed how is it adjusted ? again would it explain 1 and 2 being strong while 3 and 4 dead?

Sorry to ask what are probably pretty dumb questions but just starting out and very gratefull for your guidance

Cheers
Ian

[Rinzler]

Welcome aboard Ian!.:-)

I wouldn't worry about that, I'm not exactly mechanically minded myself, so never worry about asking something you are not sure of.

There are loads of members here who would be glad to help with advice, I have only just joined recently myself and have been made very welcome here by the members, so your in good hands!.

Welcome!.

[julianw]

Hi Ian


Have a neighbour with compression tester so will try that next - beginning to think it might be head gasket - how would that look on the pressure test -- will it be obvious or more subtle - sounds like a big job to fix

I've not experienced this - but I would expect the sort of failure that the HG would have to have suffered for 3 and 4 to give no power at all, to be quite obvious when you measure the cylinder pressure. True, a head gasket change is not to be taken lightly - again, something I've not had to do yet - but I think of it as being only a couple of steps further than a timing belt change, which is not too bad. However, you will need the help of someone who's pretty savvy to stop it turning into a nightmare, or have plenty of time and the ability to make some tools as substitutes for the Toyota 'Special service tools' (for a timing belt change, mine are: a bracket to lock the flywheel in position; a bit of angle iron I use to pull the crankshaft drive belt pulley off (often a sod of a job without one of these)). Chances are there will be some more required to make taking the head off a bit easier too.



Have timing light but not sure how to check on MR2 - Also if timing out how could 1 and 2 be so strong
I only have an old style timing light - it connects between the plug lead and the plug. Newer ones just clamp around the spark plug lead and pick up the signal by induction. When connected to the lead and plug for cylinder 1, and pointed at the timing mark on the belt drive pulley, it shows how many degrees before top dead centre (BTDC) the spark is generated. But the ECU changes the ignition timing during normal running, so you have to put the ECU into a setup mode with a shorting wire between E1 and T on the diagnostic plug that sits on a bracket on the firewall, just behind the air box/resonator (if you have one). Your timing being wrong will not account for cyl 3 and 4 not working, but you might have more than one issue here - and lack of power and noise under load suggests bad timing or fuel mix to me.



Water in air intake - That sounds like a simpler problem than Head Gasket - can you advise where to look for that first - could it cause the symptoms ? why only 3 and 4?
Again, you're right - this would be very unlikely to cause a problem on specific cylinders only, but I'm looking out for other issues to do with water. First, just check that the air filter is dry (left side of boot, behind trim).



Multimeter - Think thats what the neighbour used to check the injector connections were all giving same input (they were) - where is the "throttle sensor " how does one "check out its condition and adjustment "? indeed how is it adjusted ? again would it explain 1 and 2 being strong while 3 and 4 dead?

The throttle sensor is a roughly round black and silver block, on the rearmost part of the throttle body (look to the left of the T-VIS badge) - it's nestled between the throttle body and the firewall, about in line with the engine cover latch mech. It's adjustment is purely by loosening the screws that mount it, and rotating it so that its position is correct for the point at which the throttle butterfly inside the body opens. It is a bit fiddly to set up - the workshop manual details how the resistance between two pairs of contacts (its connector has four) should change as the throttle is opened. It is originally a sealed unit and really, if it fails the tests in the manual, should be replaced. Trouble is, Toyota charge over 100 quid for a new one. I've ended up taking scrap ones apart to see what can be done to extend their life and there's not much that can - they're basically a more complex volume control and the carbon tracks wear out, just like the rotary volume controls on old hifi. And again, this part failing or being out of adjustment cannot cause a problem with specific cylinders. But it is crucial to the correct setup of fuelling and timing. If you want to pursue this, I can give you the details on how to test it with a meter. Don't loosen off the screws holding it in position until you're convinced it's out of adjustment.

Sorry I don't have clearer advice as to what might be the cause here. Bear in mind the timing light connected to each spark plug lead in turn will give you a better idea as to the presence/strength of spark on each cylinder and if it is indeed an issue just with two cylinders not giving power and your injectors are delivering fuel, ignition is where you need to be looking.

Good luck and let us know what happens.

[Ian France]

Thanks Guys for some really helpfull comments - I see from the news that you are having rain problems in UK - Hope no one on here badly affected -would like to tease by saying its sunny here but in fact it has rained (and when it rains here its no half measures!)for the last 48 hours more or less non stop and doing a pretty good immitation of Venice ! All work on hold at least till the temporary lake becomes a driveway again - will let you know how it goes when I can get stuck back in - Cheers Ian

[julianw]

i was just thinking i'd choose a cold, dry wind such as Le Mistral over UK weather anyday!

[Clifford Hardman]

Hi Ian, I live in France region 16, I am having no luck registering my mk1 as they do not recognise the homologation! So I cannot get it control techniques! How have you managed it or re you still UK registered? They say I must have a European certificate of conformity, but no one will give me one! Appreciate your views, also are you in the ner vicinity please?
Regards, Cliff

[cabbydave]

Have you tried Toyota?

[Clifford Hardman]

Have you tried Toyota?
Hi, Thanks for that but unfortunately as I said France does not recognise the homologation of the MK1 as it was never sold here. This is why I am struggling!! They want me to take it the French D of T to get it inspected for 2,000 euros fee, if they OK it then I can register it. The car is 1985 and what is its value?? So I have been told that I should return it to UK for MOT and re-register on its old plates. I have asked for recommendations as to a MK1 garage in the south of UK who could look it over and get in tested, etc if necessary leave it in a secure place and return to collect! Any ideas would be appreciated.
Cheers, Cliff

[Mouton Rouge]

Hello Ian and Cliff

I hope the weather is improving in the South of France and you are making some progress.
I too live in France in Brittany and am still trying to get French registration for my UK registered 1989 MR2 Mk1
This saga has so far been going on for over nine months and the end still seems a long way off.
I first got in touch with D.R.E.A.L. (Direction Regionale de l’Environment de l’Amenagement et du Logement) in my department who then opened a dossier in my name. So far I have been requested to obtain an Attestation de NON Conformite; obtain the British National Type Approval document for my car; fill in a Technical Questionnaire consisting of around a hundred questions (I’m not kidding);get the vehicle weighed on a public weigh bridge; etc..etc… I am still working on some of the requests from DREAL.

IAN:
Is your Mk1 right-hand drive and did you manage to get French registration for it?

CLIFF;
I suggest that you initially get in touch with DREAL for your Department and see what their requirements are. Probably DREAL-Poitou-Charentes / Angouleme Prefecture. I hope some of this information is of use to you. Please let me know.

Regards,
Ray

[Clifford Hardman]

Hello Ian and Cliff

I hope the weather is improving in the South of France and you are making some progress.
I too live in France in Brittany and am still trying to get French registration for my UK registered 1989 MR2 Mk1
This saga has so far been going on for over nine months and the end still seems a long way off.
I first got in touch with D.R.E.A.L. (Direction Regionale de l’Environment de l’Amenagement et du Logement) in my department who then opened a dossier in my name. So far I have been requested to obtain an Attestation de NON Conformite; obtain the British National Type Approval document for my car; fill in a Technical Questionnaire consisting of around a hundred questions (I’m not kidding);get the vehicle weighed on a public weigh bridge; etc..etc… I am still working on some of the requests from DREAL.

IAN:
Is your Mk1 right-hand drive and did you manage to get French registration for it?

CLIFF;
I suggest that you initially get in touch with DREAL for your Department and see what their requirements are. Probably DREAL-Poitou-Charentes / Angouleme Prefecture. I hope some of this information is of use to you. Please let me know.

Regards,
Ray

Hi Ray,
Much appreciate that but I did not want to bore you and takes pages for a reply. I must say I will be interested to see how you go on and wish you all the good luck in the world! I have been through ALL of this over the past few YEARS and have been told for 2000 euros take it to DREAL in Paris to get it type of D of T full examination, almost take it apart, then if they provide a 'certificate of European conformity' go to the local Angouleme Prefecture to get a Carte grise (log book) then for about 200 euros, possibly plus emissions charge. I was told at the DREAL to re-reg it in UK, tax, MOT, insure and continue as per normal in France. They realise the French beaurocracy involved!!! They reckon the French cops in this area aren't too concerned? I have virtually torn my hair out over the years, currently my French test certificate has run out and I am told without the cert of conformity then cannot test it! So my insurance(French)becomes invalid. SoI am in a quandary and have considered trailer ing it over to south UK to do as they recommended, so I put on the club site asking if anyone in south of UK knows a good Mr garage and a safe place to leave it with if work required, then Zi would return to collect!
Hope this ones not bore you too much?
Buber regards,
Cliff

[Mouton Rouge]

Hello Cliff,
Appreciate your response. I will continue with the French registration exercise until I get fed up with it or it becomes too expensive. If you manage to find a good Mr Garage in south of the UK I would be glad to hear of it as it may be the way I ultimately have to go as well.
Best regards,
Ray

[Clifford Hardman]

Hi, Sorry to frighten you off somewhat, but I have been doing bits on and off over some years and since then the French have moved the goalposts, made it. More difficult. I have asked advice from Toyota GB and got Type approval forms but as the frogs say it was never sold in France so they do not want to know! I wrote to Toyota France sent a cheque it was returned not recognised homologation!!
Take care and sorry but I find this website very difficult to get through, seeing I am a more mature person!!
Cliff

[LeeBarton]

Hi

I live in the North of France and also have MK1's. Have you tried registering it here yet, or were you lucky enough to get one that is French registered?

My local DRIRE is a very difficult authority to get past, as the MK1 was never officially homologated here, so any application for French registgration has to be done subject to a full inspection at a track near Paris. The cost per car is circa 1500 euros and they don't guarantee it will pass, so I have been patiently looking for a French registered example. I would estimate that only a few have made it that far. I know of 4 in the North, but if it turns out that more than 200 have been registered, it could be viable to ask for it to be homologated officially.

When I wrote to Toyota, enclosing the requested 150 euros, they sent me a Certificate of NON- Conformity!!!!! A lot of good that was.

Anyway, if you still have the problems with your car, let me know and I would be glad to advise.

Lee

[LeeBarton]

For all those struggling to register their MK1's in France. If you have an early model, when it is 30 years old, you can register it here without a Cof EC as it becomes eligible as a 'Collection', a bit like a classic registration in the UK.

Unfortunately, mine is a 1988, so 5 moe years to wait and, with the inability to have it go through the CT, I have to take it over to Kent every year to MOT it and drive it here on UK plates. I only drive it during the summer, so I am ok on the time limits on my UK insurance, because the car is registered at my old UK office address, which I am still associated with, so absolutely legal fortunately.

The fee for testing at the track near Paris varies and I have been quoted anywhere between 1400 euros and 2000. One thing to take into consideration is the rarity of the car here and, once French registration obtained, the car is worth considerably more than before, especially if it is LHD.

hope this helps

[Clifford Hardman]

For all those struggling to register their MK1's in France. If you have an early model, when it is 30 years old, you can register it here without a Cof EC as it becomes eligible as a 'Collection', a bit like a classic registration in the UK.

Unfortunately, mine is a 1988, so 5 moe years to wait and, with the inability to have it go through the CT, I have to take it over to Kent every year to MOT it and drive it here on UK plates. I only drive it during the summer, so I am ok on the time limits on my UK insurance, because the car is registered at my old UK office address, which I am still associated with, so absolutely legal fortunately.

The fee for testing at the track near Paris varies and I have been quoted anywhere between 1400 euros and 2000. One thing to take into consideration is the rarity of the car here and, once French registration obtained, the car is worth considerably more than before, especially if it is LHD.

hope this helps

Hi Lee, Many thanks for your kind offer. I have been trying on and off for about 7 years to sort my car out, but unfortunately my wife has been very ill over that time so the car went on the 'to sort' list and in that time the goalposts have been moved even more. The is a bloke called Keith Howlett who lives in region 79 Poitiers, I think, who I saw some years ago but lost my mobile phone and his details! He managed it but had owned the car from new, so the authorities accepted it.
I even got on to the French MR2 club, they were helpful but the brick wall came up again! The local Toyota bloe is great he said take it to Belgium, get an address, register it, get it tested, then bring it back, and register it in France with Belgium papers?? Seems a bit extreme, but 2,000 euros to get it tested!!! Might be worth an enquiry?
As I said could do with knowing a garage in the south of UK that does MK1's and get it tested and registered back in UK?
The saga continues, watch this space!
Regards,
Cliff

[Clifford Hardman]

Hi, I have just got a new exhaust manifold gasket and 2nd hand manifold from TCB and found an English mechanic who will fit it for about 70 euros! Seems OK to me? So after that I will see if there is a cheap ferry or tunnel and take her across to see about MOT UK and start to re-register ,etc. all the French stuff is doing my head in!! How are you other guys coping or is it rest in winter?
Take care and good luck,
Regards,
Cliff